Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Free-for-all chat about the Bluesound Ecosystem.
User avatar
AndrewH
Site Admin
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:14 pm
Location: Pickering, ON Canada

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by AndrewH » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:16 pm

I'll jump in for a moment.

Networking is not easy stuff, either for most people or for us to manage changes all over the world that ISPs and providers do to satisfy IPTV and Gamers. I started having issues a few months ago only to find out that my ISP have turned off Multicast in my router, stating that since my Son was playing Fortnite, and network ping was an issue they made changes globally to accommodate. Whether or not I believe them, I had to enable Multicast and give it back it's high priority.

When we transmit audio around your home, we do so typically in high resolution, and so it runs between 6-8 mb/s, based on quality and type. Add a few streams, run Netflix and you have lots happening in your router.

Our support folks are trained to answer top level questions for hundreds of ISPs all around, so naturally they will start generally and work to more formally understand the issues. But remember it's hard to be absolutely definitive when there are so many outside variables.

We do the best we can, we are good at what we do, we listen and we answer.

Andrew
DrFly wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:32 am
TonyW wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:53 am
DrFly wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:41 am
Why doesn't Bluesound come up with specific Wi-Fi boosters
Simple - we are in the business of great sounding audio and so many other companies are doing home networking better and cheaper than we can. Anything you do to improve your network will improve the experience for ALL your IoT appliances, not just your audio system.
Right, but looking at other users' accounts on the forum, it looks like I'm not the only one struggling with getting Bluesound (and only Bluesound) to work properly in a less-than-perfect network environment, such as a large house.

Many users (including myself) seem frustrated by the support team not really finding the right solution and only offering hypotheses rather than fixes ("try changing routers", "might be your powerline", "you may want to try mesh but can't promise you it will work" etc.), arguing that every network environment is different. The idea of developing your own Wi-fi booster would be to have a one-fits-all solution which would work for every Bluesound customer, in every house, on every network environment.

As regards your remark on improving my network for all my appliances, not just Bluesound: sorry to say, but as many other users with me have expressed, it's ONLY my Bluesound which requires network improvement, my other appliances work just fine with my current network environment...
BluOS Product guy; Development and Partnerships
Need help? Select Help, Send Support Request in the App or e-mail us at support@bluesound.com and we will reach out to you

BabyBoomer
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:26 am

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by BabyBoomer » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:03 am

As I have mentioned before I think the wireless implementation on Bluesound products is poor in my opinion.

Have a Node in the living room just 10 feet away from the router but have to hard wire as cannot get an excellent signal even at that short distance at 2.4GHZ, Why?.

My Pulse 2 in the bedroom no more than 25 feet away from the router so have to use an extender 5GHZ then 2.4GHZ to the Pulse, Why?.

A Node 2i in my music room no more than 30 feet away from the router constantly drops out on either 2.4GHZ and 5GHZ and I seem to be forever tinkering with another extender in the hope of getting a constant reliable signal to listen to uninterrupted Hi-Res music, Why? and to be honest would gladly sell it on but for the the fact it's too much hassle.

I have a Roon Nucleus connected to my router and yet in the music room when using my MacBook connected via 5GHZ using the Roon Controller then to an external DAC no problems at all?.

So what can we conclude from the above?. Well the question is as mentioned on other posts is, Why when other products works flawlessly ( 2.4GHZ and 5GHZ ) anywhere around my Bungalow but the only endpoints giving me grief are the Bluesound products.

Sometimes makes me wonder if we would be better of going back to the good old CD and physical media!. Just a thought.

DrFly
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:40 am
Location: Lausanne, Switzerland

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by DrFly » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:05 am

Going back to the subject of this thread, Royce could you advise if in your experience a mesh network is the adequate solution for a Bluesound system to work properly across all floors and rooms of a large house (other than having to re-boot the Flex 2i every time one moves from one mesh point to the other...)?

I am asking you and other users for feedback since after 3 months I can still only use my Bluesound system (Vault 2i, 2 Mini 2i and a Flex 2i) in half my house because all Bluesound could do for me so far was to tell me that my Powerline adapters were creating problems rather than helping but not telling me what solution would make their product work properly in my home (and, as we have seen again in this thread, repeating that "it's really complicated").

phantomtides
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by phantomtides » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:50 am

I have experienced most of these problems too and have been happier accepting that these issues are downsides of the BlueSound UX rather than searching endlessly for fixes.

You can find my pleadings elsewhere on this board, but, in short: I have two Node2's, each within just a few feet of a local Orbi router, and both of them connect continually (if not always) to the "wrong" router, causing dropouts and other irritations. (The Orbi is billed as a "mesh" system, but it's really just a regular router with terrific coverage.)

Anyway, I bought two CAT-6 cables from Amazon (total cost about $20) and just cabled the Nodes to the routers. I agree that I shouldn't have to do it that way, but it works without flaw now, and I can only spend so much time banging my head against the wall, y'know? If you have the possibility of copper connections, even a 100-foot Ethernet cable isn't expensive, and it does definitively address the stubborn wi-fi weaknesses in the BlueSound renderers. If it's not an option for you, I understand your frustrations, and I too hope there is an eventual solution that works, as nearly all other companies who manufacture wireless devices seem to have found.

Just my two cents. (I think I got change comin'.)

User avatar
TonyW
Site Admin
Posts: 3423
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:11 pm
Location: Pickering, ON CANADA
Contact:

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by TonyW » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:28 pm

Hi DrFly
DrFly wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:05 am
I am asking you and other users for feedback since after 3 months I can still only use my Bluesound system (Vault 2i, 2 Mini 2i and a Flex 2i) in half my house because all Bluesound could do for me so far was to tell me that my Powerline adapters were creating problems rather than helping but not telling me what solution would make their product work properly in my home
In principal - we do not make specific recommendations of products because we cannot speak for them. We rather educate on best practices and standards that you require 802.11ac standard routers that support multicast. If the power-line adapters are not working, contact the power-line adapter manufacturer and ask them why they do not support Multicast and how to enable it. I would also ensure those power-line adapters have the latest firmware.
phantomtides wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:50 am
I have two Node2's, each within just a few feet of a local Orbi router, and both of them connect continually (if not always) to the "wrong" router,


I'd check your Orbi documentation and figure out how to program these in bridge mode to extend your existing network rather than create new SSIDs. That's the real issue you are probably having.

In both cases, please contact support for best practices, but not just Bluesound Support, speak with your router support teams too.
Need help? Select Help, Send Support Request in the App or e-mail us at support@bluesound.com and we will reach out to you.

DrFly
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:40 am
Location: Lausanne, Switzerland

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by DrFly » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:07 am

TonyW wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:28 pm

In principal - we do not make specific recommendations of products because we cannot speak for them. We rather educate on best practices and standards that you require 802.11ac standard routers that support multicast. If the power-line adapters are not working, contact the power-line adapter manufacturer and ask them why they do not support Multicast and how to enable it. I would also ensure those power-line adapters have the latest firmware.

In both cases, please contact support for best practices, but not just Bluesound Support, speak with your router support teams too.
Sorry Tony but your colleagues from the Support Team told me at the end of a remote session that this had nothing to do with my powerline not supporting multicast, their guess was that the distance between both powerline units was too long or the quality of my electrical installation not good enough, thus creating micro-delays between both units and eventually leading my whole Bluesound players group to crash... My ISP support team (who also provide the powerline adapters) very understandably point out that the problem cannot be with them since everything else apart from Bluesound works perfectly and conclude that the problem lies with Bluesound, not them... and back to square one like apparently many other users, I am left to find out myself why my USD 3,500 Bluesound equipment does not work properly because Bluesound points fingers to everything else rather than offer an actual fix.

As to Bluesound refusing to make recommendations of products (such as mesh systems) that work with their own, nobody is asking you to advertise other products, but merely to help your confused non-IT-engineer-customers identify what products, in BS' experience, offer the right features (such as multicast), have proven to work well with Bluesound products and with which the Support Team is comfortable assisting when in remote session.

Sorry to be bragging like this, I do appreciate the friendliness of the Support Team and the opportunity to exchange with BS on a forum like this, it's just immensely frustrating not to be able to enjoy my Bluesound products properly...

Stelvio
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:43 pm

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by Stelvio » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:31 am

+1 all of that.
_________________________________________________
NAD T758v3 | Powernode2 | Soundbar2 | Pulse Flex x3

Royce
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by Royce » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:48 am

DrFly wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:05 am
Going back to the subject of this thread, Royce could you advise if in your experience a mesh network is the adequate solution for a Bluesound system to work properly across all floors and rooms of a large house (other than having to re-boot the Flex 2i every time one moves from one mesh point to the other...)?

I am asking you and other users for feedback since after 3 months I can still only use my Bluesound system (Vault 2i, 2 Mini 2i and a Flex 2i) in half my house because all Bluesound could do for me so far was to tell me that my Powerline adapters were creating problems rather than helping but not telling me what solution would make their product work properly in my home (and, as we have seen again in this thread, repeating that "it's really complicated").
At the moment I'm not experiencing any network problems. This is how my network is setup;
I have a (Wifi) modem/router from my provider (Ziggo) which I set in bridge mode, so it only works as a modem. I have a Ubiquiti Amplifi HD mesh network with two routers and two mesh points. My main HD router is on the ground floor in the 'fuse box closet' (don't know what it's called in english) in the middle of my house, connected to the Ziggo modem and functions as a router. My second HD router is at the attic in ethernet backbone mode and connected with an ethernet cable with de HD router on the ground floor. On the second floor I have a HD mesh point in 2.4GHz backbone band mode to cover that floor (100% connection between router and mesh point). My second HD mesh point is on the ground floor in the kitchen right below the Bluesound Mini 2i and the backbone band is set at 5GHz (84% signal between router and mesh point).

My Node2 and Soundbar are connected with an ethernet cable to my main HD router on the ground floor.

At first I had the mesh point in the kitchen at about 5m (clear field) from my Mini 2i so that the signal to the garden was better. That gave a -62dBm signal. At that moment I had some network problems. Sometimes making a group did not go well, or the music stutterd. Now the mesh point is right below the Mini 2i with a -49dBm signal and 76% connection to the mesh point, I'm not experiencing any problems anymore.

The Flex 2i is in my bedroom, about 6m from the second floor mesh point with one wall between it. Signal between Flex and mesh point is 74% and -54dBm. No problems. If I put the Flex 2i beside my Mini 2i, I get a better signal than with the Mini. Seems like the Wifi signal reception from the Flex is bit better than from the Mini. If I want to play the Flex 2i outside in the garden, I take the mesh point from the second floor outside. Signal between router and mesh point is 64% with two brick walls between the outside mesh point and the mesh point in the kitchen. The Flex is right above the outside mesh point and gives a -55dBm signal with a 100% connection to the mesh point. No problems when playing the Flex outside and in a group with the Mini 2i in the kitchen.

In the beginning, the Bluesound players always connected at 5GHz which covered less distance and gave worse signal. The only way to make the players always connect at 2.4GHz was to make an additional SSID network which is set at 2.4GHz. That gave more distance and better signal.

If I set both backbone bands from the mesh points at 5GHz, the signal between router and mesh point get worse. But I didn't experience network problems with the players from that setting. It seems like a less signal between router and mesh point is no problem for the Bluesound players. A less signal between the mesh point and player does! To make the coverage better, I set the mesh point on the second floor at 2.4GHz backbone band so it will have better connection with the router when placing it outside in the garden.

It seems like a good signal between a Bluesound player and a mesh point is the solution for a lot of problems. Support also told me that the signal had to be below -60dBm. And it looks like they are telling the truth. Since my signals are below -55dBm everything works well.
To accomplish that, I had to put the mesh points close to the players. So in some conditions you will have to buy an extra mesh point.
In my case, I will buy an extra one for a better signal outside. The only problem for now is that the players won't rescan. So if you take the Flex to another location, you have to restart it. If you restart it, it will always connect to the mesh point with the best signal.

I don't know if the Ubiquiti has multicast. I can't find anything about that and I don't know if that would improve anything.

I really love the Ubiquiti mesh network in my house. I have a good signal everywhere for all phones, speakers etc. And if not, just place an extra mesh point. The app is also great. You can see coverage signals from the mesh points and connected players, phones etc. All settings are done in the app. You also have a guest network from where you can set the number of guests, a timer to stop the guest network and the ability to set a password or not. Phones always connect to the best mesh point automatically. The only thing Bluesound has to do, is introduce 'rescan' to there players!

User avatar
AndrewH
Site Admin
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:14 pm
Location: Pickering, ON Canada

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by AndrewH » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:31 am

Really appreciate the description you've added and the details.

"The only thing Bluesound has to do, is introduce 'rescan' to there players!" We talked about this specific thing this morning. We have code in to find the strongest access point and connect to it, but do need to update for both passive networks and moves (battery packs). Will work on it.

Andrew

Royce wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:48 am
DrFly wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:05 am
Going back to the subject of this thread, Royce could you advise if in your experience a mesh network is the adequate solution for a Bluesound system to work properly across all floors and rooms of a large house (other than having to re-boot the Flex 2i every time one moves from one mesh point to the other...)?

I am asking you and other users for feedback since after 3 months I can still only use my Bluesound system (Vault 2i, 2 Mini 2i and a Flex 2i) in half my house because all Bluesound could do for me so far was to tell me that my Powerline adapters were creating problems rather than helping but not telling me what solution would make their product work properly in my home (and, as we have seen again in this thread, repeating that "it's really complicated").
At the moment I'm not experiencing any network problems. This is how my network is setup;
I have a (Wifi) modem/router from my provider (Ziggo) which I set in bridge mode, so it only works as a modem. I have a Ubiquiti Amplifi HD mesh network with two routers and two mesh points. My main HD router is on the ground floor in the 'fuse box closet' (don't know what it's called in english) in the middle of my house, connected to the Ziggo modem and functions as a router. My second HD router is at the attic in ethernet backbone mode and connected with an ethernet cable with de HD router on the ground floor. On the second floor I have a HD mesh point in 2.4GHz backbone band mode to cover that floor (100% connection between router and mesh point). My second HD mesh point is on the ground floor in the kitchen right below the Bluesound Mini 2i and the backbone band is set at 5GHz (84% signal between router and mesh point).

My Node2 and Soundbar are connected with an ethernet cable to my main HD router on the ground floor.

At first I had the mesh point in the kitchen at about 5m (clear field) from my Mini 2i so that the signal to the garden was better. That gave a -62dBm signal. At that moment I had some network problems. Sometimes making a group did not go well, or the music stutterd. Now the mesh point is right below the Mini 2i with a -49dBm signal and 76% connection to the mesh point, I'm not experiencing any problems anymore.

The Flex 2i is in my bedroom, about 6m from the second floor mesh point with one wall between it. Signal between Flex and mesh point is 74% and -54dBm. No problems. If I put the Flex 2i beside my Mini 2i, I get a better signal than with the Mini. Seems like the Wifi signal reception from the Flex is bit better than from the Mini. If I want to play the Flex 2i outside in the garden, I take the mesh point from the second floor outside. Signal between router and mesh point is 64% with two brick walls between the outside mesh point and the mesh point in the kitchen. The Flex is right above the outside mesh point and gives a -55dBm signal with a 100% connection to the mesh point. No problems when playing the Flex outside and in a group with the Mini 2i in the kitchen.

In the beginning, the Bluesound players always connected at 5GHz which covered less distance and gave worse signal. The only way to make the players always connect at 2.4GHz was to make an additional SSID network which is set at 2.4GHz. That gave more distance and better signal.

If I set both backbone bands from the mesh points at 5GHz, the signal between router and mesh point get worse. But I didn't experience network problems with the players from that setting. It seems like a less signal between router and mesh point is no problem for the Bluesound players. A less signal between the mesh point and player does! To make the coverage better, I set the mesh point on the second floor at 2.4GHz backbone band so it will have better connection with the router when placing it outside in the garden.

It seems like a good signal between a Bluesound player and a mesh point is the solution for a lot of problems. Support also told me that the signal had to be below -60dBm. And it looks like they are telling the truth. Since my signals are below -55dBm everything works well.
To accomplish that, I had to put the mesh points close to the players. So in some conditions you will have to buy an extra mesh point.
In my case, I will buy an extra one for a better signal outside. The only problem for now is that the players won't rescan. So if you take the Flex to another location, you have to restart it. If you restart it, it will always connect to the mesh point with the best signal.

I don't know if the Ubiquiti has multicast. I can't find anything about that and I don't know if that would improve anything.

I really love the Ubiquiti mesh network in my house. I have a good signal everywhere for all phones, speakers etc. And if not, just place an extra mesh point. The app is also great. You can see coverage signals from the mesh points and connected players, phones etc. All settings are done in the app. You also have a guest network from where you can set the number of guests, a timer to stop the guest network and the ability to set a password or not. Phones always connect to the best mesh point automatically. The only thing Bluesound has to do, is introduce 'rescan' to there players!
BluOS Product guy; Development and Partnerships
Need help? Select Help, Send Support Request in the App or e-mail us at support@bluesound.com and we will reach out to you

Royce
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:48 pm

Re: Bluesound can't handle mesh points?

Post by Royce » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:55 pm

AndrewH wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:31 am
Really appreciate the description you've added and the details.

"The only thing Bluesound has to do, is introduce 'rescan' to there players!" We talked about this specific thing this morning. We have code in to find the strongest access point and connect to it, but do need to update for both passive networks and moves (battery packs). Will work on it.

Andrew
Great to hear Andrew! With the hype around mesh networks this will be a perfect addition.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests