What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

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TonyW
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Re: What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

Post by TonyW » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:44 am

Hi Wayne

I believe I already did - way back on this thread
TonyW wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:17 pm
Initial DSD Playback requires the BluOS App for Windows or MacOS. In Settings. Playback, Turn on Enable DSD Playback. Using the Browse button, locate the DSD files on your PC. These will be copied and converted to PCM and available to all Bluesound Players in all Apps once completed. The original DSD files will not be altered...
and
TonyW wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:09 pm
Not quite DMaltor - we will convert to PCM using the Desktop App on first pass but once converted, the PCM Converted file will play in any BluOS Player from any controller App. This is what most of the industry elsewhere is doing as native DSD is actually a proprietary standard and most DSD playback is reversed engineered this way. It is a digital to digital conversion so has no data loss (which technically even the best analogue to digital conversion can very marginally suffer from).

The benefit of DSD recordings however (and why some still seek them out) is many of them date back prior to 24 bit recordings. At the time PCM was limited to 16 bit while DSD was 20 bit so SACD actually does have more detail than standard CD. As we all know now, more bits allowed for more fluid change in dynamic range.
Need help? Select Help, Send Support Request in the App or e-mail us at support@bluesound.com and we will reach out to you.

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Re: What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

Post by alrmad » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:27 am

1. Wayenfi: I believe you can use your PC as a Roon Server, and then any BlueOS-device will become a Roon endpoint, meaning it will automatically receive the highest bit-rate it supports. So I would expect Roon server to handshake with any DSD-supporting endpoint, eg. NAD M10, and send it the native DSD-stream with no transcoding (ie no DSD>PCM conversion).

2. TonyW: '' This is what most of the industry elsewhere is doing...''. You must be referring to the sub-industry of multiroom speaker/software-manufacturers, not the audio-industry in general. I am 100% with you when it comes to BlueSound's line of multiroom speakers, I seriously doubt anyone would notice any difference in SQ between a 320kbs mp3-file, 16-bit 44.1kHz, 24-bit, MQA or DSD through a multi-room speaker. I have a large library of DSD-files, and for playback through my BlueSound speaker it would just be so much more convenient, if I didn't have to convert them first to PCM.

But...

3. TonyW: ''native DSD is actually a proprietary standard ... It (DSD>PCM-conversion) ... has no data loss...As we all know now, more bits allowed for more fluid change in dynamic range.''

SACD (the spinning discs) were a proprietary standard, not the DSD-files (.dsf, for example). You can argue DSD>PCM-conversion has no data loss because the container (the resulting file) may be of similar size, but the data are different. It's akin to saying MQA can be converted to uncompressed PCM with no data loss: The important thing, however, is how a high-end DAC behaves, and most SABRE DACs, for example, will sound noticeably better if fed the native DSD-file. Which brings me back to my point: The NAD-products touting DSD-support: They are in a different league, they are high-end audio products, and as such, MUST support native DSD-playback if they advertise so. There is simply no arguing or spinning this point. If I as a consumer can't bring the product to play back my native DSD-files without transcoding, then NAD will have made false claims. This is why I wrote I couldn't understand why the new NAD products don't feature an asyncronous USB-port.

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Re: What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

Post by KenM10759 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:13 pm

I just bought an NAD Masters M10 from my favorite local NAD/PSB/Bluesound dealer. It's replacing the Bluesound Powernode 2 on my desktop, to power my KEF LS50's and KEF Kube 10b sub.

If I can get my hands on some DSD files and put them in my music library, I'll let you know if the ESS Sabre 9028 DAC handles it natively. :)
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Re: What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

Post by braino » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:07 pm

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Re: What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

Post by Waynefi » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:42 am

KenM10759 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:13 pm
I just bought an NAD Masters M10 from my favorite local NAD/PSB/Bluesound dealer. It's replacing the Bluesound Powernode 2 on my desktop, to power my KEF LS50's and KEF Kube 10b sub.

If I can get my hands on some DSD files and put them in my music library, I'll let you know if the ESS Sabre 9028 DAC handles it natively. :)
Well I tried some .DSF files (downloaded DSD) and it does not recognize them. If you run the DSD conversion program from a PC it converts to PCM then plays them.

So why they advertise DSD as a feature of the M10 I don't know. Somebody I have worked with before a NAD is getting back to me this week hopefully with a few questions answered.

I believe Bluos is the issue not the DAC.

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Re: What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

Post by AndrewH » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:01 pm

There is definitely some confusion here. The M10 does not natively handle DSD. the only DSD that we process is done as described by having the desktop app convert it to PCM.
Waynefi wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:42 am
KenM10759 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:13 pm
I just bought an NAD Masters M10 from my favorite local NAD/PSB/Bluesound dealer. It's replacing the Bluesound Powernode 2 on my desktop, to power my KEF LS50's and KEF Kube 10b sub.

If I can get my hands on some DSD files and put them in my music library, I'll let you know if the ESS Sabre 9028 DAC handles it natively. :)
Well I tried some .DSF files (downloaded DSD) and it does not recognize them. If you run the DSD conversion program from a PC it converts to PCM then plays them.

So why they advertise DSD as a feature of the M10 I don't know. Somebody I have worked with before a NAD is getting back to me this week hopefully with a few questions answered.

I believe Bluos is the issue not the DAC.
BluOS Product guy; Development and Partnerships
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Re: What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

Post by Waynefi » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:35 pm

AndrewH wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:01 pm
There is definitely some confusion here. The M10 does not natively handle DSD. the only DSD that we process is done as described by having the desktop app convert it to PCM.
As I said my guess is the M10 DAC will do DSD, the problem is Bluos.

That said, the M10 actually says DSD in their ads, not over PCM or DOP. So that is not true or honest to people buying them.

The real question is why not DSD or .DSF file capable ?

The PCM conversion thing works, but that is not the same as saying DSD.

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Re: What do we want? DSD! When ? Soon!!! (please?)

Post by alrmad » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:11 pm

Waynefi wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:35 pm
AndrewH wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:01 pm
There is definitely some confusion here. The M10 does not natively handle DSD. the only DSD that we process is done as described by having the desktop app convert it to PCM.
As I said my guess is the M10 DAC will do DSD, the problem is Bluos.

That said, the M10 actually says DSD in their ads, not over PCM or DOP. So that is not true or honest to people buying them.

The real question is why not DSD or .DSF file capable ?

The PCM conversion thing works, but that is not the same as saying DSD.
AndrewH:
NAD advertising DSD-support:
https://nadelectronics.com/product/m10- ... amplifier/
>>Specifications>>DAC Section>>Hi-Resolution Formats: MQA, DSD, FLAC, WAV, AIFF
So, if it turns out there is ''confusion here'', and ''The M10 does not natively handle DSD'', it's down to NAD's misleading advertising. What about the other digital formats, MQA, for example. Is this another a feature just listed in the spec-sheet, but not handled natively in the real world?

Waynefi:
DoP is actually 100% un-converted native DSD, it's just fooling the streamer/server/datalink to think it's handing over PCM, but when the datastream reaches a DoP-capable DAC there will be some code in the stream alerting the DAC that it is in fact a DSD-stream raising the DSD-flag. It's bit-perfect DSD.

I don't suppose you could download a trial-version of Roon (I believe you get two weeks free trial) and use Roon to send the .dsf file to the M10. Roon (and maybe the M10) should indicate precisely if you're listening to native DSD or transcoded PCM. If the M10 is Roon-certified it should receive a DSD-stream if it supports DSD. Intriguing...

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